14B.6 and 14C.2.6 Penalization the offending team after advantage has given
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
[Ideas taken from the closed discussion “No advantage when players fall off”]
Steven@: “I think possibly we could make it clear that a referee can play advantage AND send someone from the field for 2+ mins after advantage has been played.” and “Scoring against a team who has fouled is a bigger punishment than a free shot against them, the only way it would be a bigger punishment to the team is if they had a player sent off for 2 mins and I think that can be done even after playing advantage.” and Gareth@:”If an advantage is called, I don't see why the referee can't have a word with the player who has fouled another player and still keep the flow of the game. This happens in a lot of sports e.g. football, where the referee can then have a word with the other player or card them after or during the play.”
Currently
“In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team, unless the Referee decides not to interrupt the game (advantage).” (14B.6) and
“To apply the advantage rule, the Referee makes the normal sign for a free shot with one arm pointing in the direction of play of the team who has the advantage. In addition, the Referee may shout “Advantage” or “Go ahead!”, but does not blow the whistle. The end of advantage play should be signified, either by blowing the whistle to give a free shot for the original foul in the case where no advantage was gained, or by lowering the arm again and/or shouting “Advantage over”. (4C.2.6)
A penalization of the offending team or player in the case of a given advantage is not possible, there is only an “or” and no room for something else. We should carry on with this general discussion.
“have a word” (we have no yellow cards so far) as a warning is sometimes necessary before given 2-minutes. And if a referee is loudly shouting “Advantage” or “Go ahead” for everybody's notice it should be clear that the referee has seen something what normally would be penalized.
I have personal problems also with this rule part “in the case where no advantage was gained, or by lowering the arm again and/or shouting “Advantage over”. I think in case no advantage was gained (as a feeling let me say e.g. within 5 seconds) the referee should blow the whistle. (Delete from (4C.2.6): “…in the case where no advantage was gained, or by lowering the arm again and/or shouting “Advantage over”. Write: … in the case where no advantage was gained, the referee should interrupt the game.”)
I would propose to add into (14B.6) “In the case the violation in a given advantage requires more response by the referee he should interrupt the game in a suitable short term after the violation.”
Comment
I think in case no advantage was gained (as a feeling let me say e.g. within 5 seconds) the referee should blow the whistle. (Delete from (4C.2.6): “ in the case where no advantage was gained, the referee should interrupt the game.”)
I agree we should add something like this.
I would propose to add into (14B.6) “In the case the violation in a given advantage requires more response by the referee he should interrupt the game in a suitable short term after the violation.”
I agree we should add something like this. I am unsure of whether we should specify "suitable short term" or not. As I put in the other thread one of our sports tried to define what constituted advantage being given and found a black and white rule actually did not work. Do people think we should try and set a specific "point" that advantage has been played? Or do we leave it up to referee?
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I believe there's a distinction in keeping the ball and keeping play going and losing an unusually large opportunity because the game stopped. In a lot of games the game switches from being played in one end and being played in another. If all players are in front of the opponents goal and I get fouled it's not really clear that I would even have been able to make a goal in that situation (as opposed to just trying to pass the ball). On the other hand if my team is making a fast moving attack moving the game from our end to the opponents and get fouled on the way there might still be an advantage to play if the ball is passed. After that shot the game pretty much resumes to normal endzone game and there's no problem in blowing the whistle then. I'm not sure it's easy to formalize but I think a distinction exists.
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An advantage does not always have to be a shot on goal I think. Often it is the ability to keep controlling the ball as the opposition are forced to try and cover you which can then LEAD to a shot on goal in maybe 5-10 seconds.
Often receiving a corner after being fouled in the attacking zone is a worse result for your team than having the ability to continue moving the ball between your teammates and the opposition scrambling to defend you.
I think an advantage can also be when you have the ability to control the ball within your team for a certain period while the opposition is finding it hard to respond to that.
If you are fouled and it goes to your team mate who falls off, I would say that advantage did not occur because your team got no gain from it.
If you are fouled and it goes to your team mate who passes it to another teammate who then passes it to another and the opposition struggling to cover your teamplay then that is advantage gained as your team was able to control the ball and do what they want and it will likely lead to a shot shortly.
I don't think advantage always has to require a shot on goal. But unless you clearly had an advantage in gameplay after your player was fouled then I would halt the game and call the foul. I think it does takes some ability from a referee watching the game to think "hmm that team has an advantage right now despite not taking a shot" but I think it is possible.
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I think a challenge here is that some games have quite a lot of goals and some have few. It's not uncommon that a 10-minute game can have 5-10 goals scored and so saying the advantage plays for 10 seconds or until a goal is scored makes sense. On the other hand if you're playing 20 minutes and only 1-2 goals get scored on either side the advantage is much more in holding the ball. The question is how to make rules that can consistently be applied in this case.
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An other proposed wording: "...the referee must should penalise the offending team or player immediately ..."this will probably come closer to what we understand or interpret. This would also give the referee a chance to penalize later.
Steven@:"If you are fouled and it goes to your team mate who passes it to another teammate who then passes it to another and the opposition struggling to cover your teamplay then that is advantage gained as your team was able to control the ball and do what they want and it will likely lead to a shot shortly. I don't think advantage always has to require a shot on goal." > I agree.
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I responded the same response in the insults result discussion
I think this wording covers the ability of the referee to 1) call play back if advantage was not received and 2) allow a referee to penalise a player after playing advantage.
14B.6 Penalties
In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team or play the advantage. In the event that an advantage was not gained, the referee should enforce the penalty from the initial point of infringement. Additionally at the referees discretion, players may be penalised resulting in a send off after advantage was played.
I believe the "penalising" player after an advantage should be a discipline penalty, where the player is either sent off/warned they will be sent off. I dont think we should provide a team with a free shot AFTER they also received and gained an advantage.
The problem I see with the below wording is that it seems to me that the word "should" gives the referee scope to not penalise at all. The addition of "immediately" means it actually gives the option of a delayed penalty, bust most who read it will not understand that it is giving them the power to give a delayed penalty. We only understand that a delayed penalty can be given because we are discussing it here and it is in context for us.
"the referee should penalise the offending team or player immediately, unless the Referee decides not to interrupt the game (advantage)."
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I agree we should do something about this.
Also, just to confirm - I do not feel like the player has to have a shot on goal once/shortly after the advantage is given. If the player/team who has been 'fouled' has continued with the game (advantage), the referee should not need to stop the play unless something else has occurred. If the player/team has played advantage, they are simply keeping the ball in their possession, as they feel that is currently more advantageous to them, rather than a free shot etc.
I think the wording with 'suitable' is a different one, as we could easily define a time here or leave it to the referee. I feel time shouldn't be defined, but I agree that it should be suitable. We should also try to be consistent with the wording.
I agree that 'must' is the best solution at the moment, as 'should' can be a little vague.
How about:
"If a foul (14B.8 Fouls) occurs, the referee must penalize the offending team or player immediately; however, the referee can allow play to continue (advantage) if the non-offending team continues to play with the ball in their possession and the referee agrees that there is no need for the play to stop."
I struggled for wording for the above, but I guess you get my impression from it.
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Christian and i disgussed this and we have the same opinion.
I totally agree that we should give the referees the possibility to send a player off the field after the advantage has been played (like in ice hockey or floorball).
Herbert: “have a word” (we have no yellow cards so far) as a warning is sometimes necessary before given 2-minutes.
I completely disagree with this statement. If the foul was dangerous or intentional a referee should give a penalty box (this is clearly stated by the rules). This should be done even if only 5 seconds of a game are played. It’s clear, that the referee must shout “Advantage” that he could send off a player after advantage has been given.
I think it is not necessary to specify when the referee interrupts the game after an advantage has been given. This is in discretion of the referees. If the referee has seen a foul where he wants to send off a player, I would rule it like in ice hockey or floorball: the game continues until the team which has done the violation of the rules gets in possession of the ball. Then the game is interrupted, and the offending player is sent off the field. In this case the game can continue because the team which was fouled has no more danger to receive a goal.
I agree with you Steven that it is also an advantage when you do not shoot immediately on the goal.
Magnus, I do not think that there exist rules which are perfect and very well defined for every situation. In most cases it is up to the referee to decide (“in discretion of the referees”). The rules can only be as good as the referees on the field.
I find your proposal good Steven. I totally agree with your point that a team cannot get the advantage and the free shot. I think we should complete this rule with when this player is sent off the field.
Taking up Steven’s suggestion I would suggest something like:
In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team or play the advantage. To show the advantage the referee makes the hand sign for a free shot and shouts “Advantage!” or “Go ahead!”. In the event that an advantage was not gained, the referee should enforce the penalty from the initial point of infringement. Additionally, at the referee’s discretion, players may be penalized resulting in a send off after advantage was played when the offending team gets in possession of the ball. In this case the game continues with a face off where the ball was when the offending team got in possession of the ball.
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Nicolai you are adding this text to 14B.6 Penalties yes? I have added it changed it slightly.
14B.6 Penalties
In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team or play the advantage. To show the advantage the referee makes the hand sign for a free shot and shouts “Advantage!” In the event that an advantage was not gained, the referee should enforce the penalty from the initial point of infringement. Additionally, at the referee’s discretion, offending players may be sent off after advantage was played. The referee should not enforce this penalty until the offending team gains possession of the ball and should resume the game with a face off at the point of possession change.
Notes: I think we can take out player can be penalised resulting in a send off and just change it to a player "may be sent off". The only penalising the referee can do after playing advantage is also sending a player off so I think the extra words of "penalise a player resulting in a" is not needed. If the ref has played advantage he cant then penalise a team providing a free shot only.
I think we should get rid of the words "go ahead" it sounds casual and doesn't work well in english. You want a brief one word in the middle of a game to make people aware of what you are calling, using "go ahead" doesn't seem to be the right option.
Also 14C.2.6 General has a bunch of text explaining the advantage rule and reffing fouls. I think possibly it could go under 14B.6 Penalties instead, or at least the face off instructions can.
14C.2.6 General
To apply the advantage rule, the Referee makes the normal sign for a free shot with one arm pointing in the direction of play of the team who has the advantage. In addition, the Referee may shout “Advantage” or “Go ahead!”, but does not blow the whistle. The end of advantage play should be signified, either by blowing the whistle to give a free shot for the original foul in the case where no advantage was gained, or by lowering the arm again and/or shouting “Advantage over”.
After each interruption of the game the Referee briefly explains the decision. In addition the corresponding hand sign is shown. When two or more players fall and it is unclear whether a foul occurred, the Referees can interrupt the game and then continue it with a face-off. This prevents more players being drawn into the situation.
14B.6 Penalties In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team, unless the Referee decides not to interrupt the game (advantage).
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Yes I wanted to add this text to 14B.6 Penalties. I think I belongs there as an advantage is also a penalty.
I totally agree with your changes. One thing we should think about is how the referee signals such a situation. In ice hockey or floor ball exist a distinct hand signs for a delayed penalty (the same we have for a goal).
I don't think that everything you mentioned Steven belongs to the Penalties section, but moving a part to penalties is something we should do.
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14B.6 Penalties
In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team or play the advantage. To show the advantage the referee makes the hand sign for a free shot and shouts “Advantage!” In the event that an advantage was not gained, the referee should enforce the penalty from the initial point of infringement. Additionally, at the referee’s discretion, offending players may be sent off after advantage was played. The referee should not enforce this penalty until the offending team gains possession of the ball and should resume the game with a face off at the point of possession change. When two or more players fall and/or it is unclear whether a foul occurred, the Referees can interrupt the game and restart it with a face-off.
I took most of the text from the "general section" I think it would be more appropriate in fouls.
Face offs are also used when it is unclear whether a foul occurred but players DONT fall off right? like if someone drops their stick and it subs someone but you think that someone may have slashed it out of their hands etc, you could still use a face off to resume play.
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14B.6 Penalties
In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team or play the advantage. > agreed
To show the advantage the referee makes the hand sign for a free shot and shouts “Advantage!” > To show the advantage the referee does not blow the whistle instead he makes the hand sign for a free shot and shouts “Advantage!”
In the event that an advantage was not gained, the referee should enforce the penalty from the initial point of infringement.
> due to the consistence with the wording I would delete „infringement“ and use again „violation“.
> “penalty from the initial point of violation” this would only end in a free shot and would delete the other 2 options “6.5 M” and “Penalty Goal”.
Additionally, at the referee’s discretion, offending players may be sent off after advantage was played. > agreed
The referee should not enforce this penalty until the offending team gains possession of the ball and should resume the game with a face off at the point of possession change. > agreed
For the rest of your text I understood what you thought, for the moment I have no idea for a good sentence.
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> To show the advantage the referee makes the hand sign for a free shot and shouts “Advantage!” > To show the advantage the referee does not blow the whistle instead he makes the hand sign for a free shot and shouts “Advantage!”
In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team or play the advantage. When giving advantage the referee does not blow the whistle but should display the hand sign for a free shot and shout “Advantage!” In the event that an advantage was not gained, the referee should enforce the penalty from the initial point of infringement. Additionally, at the referee’s discretion, offending players may be sent off after advantage was played. The referee should not enforce this penalty until the offending team gains possession of the ball and should resume the game with a face off at the point of possession change. When two or more players fall and/or it is unclear whether a foul occurred, the Referees can interrupt the game and restart it with a face-off.
Violation and infringement have slightly differently meanings and in it's current form is how it would most likely be written in english. I believe in "violation of the rules" makes more sense and "initial point of violation" doesn't make as much sense and "initial point of infringement". It can be changed and still make sense it just wont sound as natural.
> “penalty from the initial point of violation” this would only end in a free shot and would delete the other 2 options “6.5 M” and “Penalty Goal”.
If you were to play advantage instead of giving a penalty initially I would imagine that the two options at that point were only advantage or penalty. If the option was advantage or penalty goal you would give a penalty goal not an advantage. Usually a penalty goal is given when an advantage wasn't possible (1 on 1 with goalie) so I cant think it would be likely that you would play advantage and then give a 6.5m instead. However a 6.5 m may be possible after playing advantage in rare cases.
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A agree "penalty goal" is not a missed option.
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No further interests or opinions for a good summery?