Face off

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Comments about this discussion:

Started 27 Oct 14:58

I'd like to have so rule about how the face off is played.

I know from experience that the most referees drop from around 1m or more. We in Switzerland have the guideline (we have no rule) to drop the ball from knee-height. I think this is more in the sense of the sport and also safer for the referees. The ball bounces no as high as in the case where it is dropped form more than 1m and therefore the sticks of the players try not to hit the ball at a height of 1m. In ice hockey the referees do not drop the puck from 1m!

I think there should be a rule which states from which height the ball should be dropped (and maybe also on which side the player have to be and where the players can be (are they allowed to stand 1m next to where the face off is done?))

Comment 27 Oct 19:08

I have experience in a lot of more than 100 games as a referee (not on A-level), I have never recognized your mentioned problems. A brand new ball under best condition will rebound a little bit under 80 %, we have to sort out the ball for hockey they rebound less than 30 %. With my body height, I drop from around 1m (I have just checked). Therefore the rebounded ball will rich a height between 80 to 30 cm. Normally the player try to hit the ball as early as possible, this means as close as possible near the floor but never at a height of 1m. I can not see your point: "I think this is more in the sense of the sport and also safer for the referees.".

"For the face-off, the Referee drops the ball between two opposing players. Play starts when the ball touches the ground." (14B.6.4 ) [I do not know when in Ice hockey starts the play. So fare I know a puck normally does not rebound.] Do have a problem on which side a player should be? I think, if a player is standing closer then 1m from the drop off point he takes a disadvantage by himself.

Somebody with similar experience like Nicolai?

Comment 27 Oct 19:48

I agree 100% that there needs to be clarification of the face off. I have wondered if you can have two people from the same team next to each other during the faceoff because the rules dont say you can't .I think we should say something along the lines of all players aside from two must be outside a 2m radius similar to a free shot.

We drip the ball from roughly waist height, about 1m. A ball doesn't bounce back to the same height, most of the time from 1m it doesn't seem to bounce higher than 50cm for me.

Ice ce hockey face offs drop the puck from about 40cm high however , they throw the puck down and the body position of ice hockey players taking the face off is legs spread wide body low and stick almost parallel to the ice. This means ice hockey players take the face off very low down to the ground. The combination of these two factors means the ref is unlikely to get his hand hit when throwing the puck down for the faceoff.

We can't throw the ball down and our players are more upright meaning theea I can see the hesitance of refs to drop the ball from 50cm. I don't see how dropping from 1m is dangerous but I dont really care either way and agree we need to put something in the rules for consistency.

Comment 28 Oct 06:05

Again, in the height of around 1m dropping I have no problem, there is enough time for the referee to make one step backwards before the ball rebounds therefore his fingers should be away. But "having two people from the same team next to each other during the faceoff" I haven´t seen so far but I got the point. Yes, we should say something as you suggested.

"For the face-off, the Referee drops the ball between two opposing players (All other players have to keep a distance with theirs wheels and sticks at least 2 m from where the ball will rebound). Play starts when the ball touches the ground."

Comment 28 Oct 11:12

The players will try to hit the ball close to the ground but they may fail. Then the ball bounces up around 50cm. There a player can also try to hit the ball with the hand (its not forbidden). This would be a safety risk for this player.

Something else is that when the players fail to hit the ball they may lunge an the sticks are everywhere.

To avoid this we drop the ball from around 40-50cm. Then the ball stays near the floor and it is more likely hit the first time (it falls and raises not as fast as when dropped from 1m). This makes the game more interesting.

Do you have a reason to drop the ball from 1m?

Personally I do not like parentheses in a rulebook. Either we have to say something or we can leave it.

Comment 28 Oct 18:13

We have much fewer faceoffs than we do bouncing balls over 50cm, this can always be a safety risk for a player, I believe a player in a faceoff would be brain dead stupid to think that using their hand is a safe option. You cant protect against stupidity with rules in my opinion.

If our issue is the safety of hands then perhaps the first contact with the ball after faceoff should be required to be with a stick? Otherwise we could have the situation where two players perform a face off by BOTH using hands? I think the only thing that stops this currently is no one is silly enough to put their hand in a face off against a stick.

We have guys in our league who will use their hand on a ball that is 25cm off the ground in regular play, they wouldn't do it in a face off though because that is stupid.

Something else is that when the players fail to hit the ball they may lunge an the sticks are everywhere.

I don't fully understand this Nicolai, it could be language barrier I am sorry. I cant think of why the 50cm height and missing the ball causes an issue with sticks.

I would agree it would probably not rise as fast.

Do you have a reason to drop the ball from 1m?

Keeping your hands free of swinging sticks by allowing you more time to remove your hand. Providing more time to remove yourself from the area of play before play starts.

Personally I do not like parentheses in a rulebook. Either we have to say something or we can leave it.

I am happy to leave out parentheses also.

Final thought: I don't feel strongly either way, I could take Nicolai's suggestion if that's what people think is best, I just haven't specifically seen the issues that it is believed are caused by dropping from 1m. :)

Comment 29 Oct 03:20

As I play together with Nicolai in the same hockey team, I can logically follow his suggestion. However, I see it less as a safety problem but more as a small issue in the sense of game flow. In our lower leagues we have often seen players not reaching the ball several times until the ball doesn't bounce back high anymore. That is one reason why we drop the ball from a lower level, so they reach the ball earlier and the game can start immediatly.

I think we should not discuss too much about this small topic. Maybe the last point, why we brought this into discussion. At UNICONS I see often referees dropping the ball from even heigher than their hips. This doesn't make sense at all.

While you might not see any issues with dropping the ball from high, we don't see reasons against dropping it from lower heights. As soon as we see a really reason for dropping the ball from 1 and more meters, Nicolai will close the discussion :-)

Comment 29 Oct 06:09

I agree that the refs should not be dropping the ball from large heights, it seems useless to me and just takes longer to start the game.

"but more as a small issue in the sense of game flow. In our lower leagues we have often seen players not reaching the ball several times until the ball doesn't bounce back high anymore. That is one reason why we drop the ball from a lower level, so they reach the ball earlier and the game can start immediatly."

This is actually a fair point if a team is unable to hit air balls well a lower dropped ball would likely start the game quicker and have less embarrassing air swings.

Comment 29 Oct 08:23

This is something I haven't thought about before but upon reflection it does make sense to drop the ball at lower heights. Normally I've dropped the ball higher to have more time to get away, but this is just a change in technique. I've never really had problems with getting in the way and the other players always stay a fair bit away even if it's not specified in the rules. I think most people just assume it's the same way as when the game restarts after a foul.

Comment 29 Oct 12:37

"game flow" for many reasons the game flow will stock by beginners. If only 1 or 3-4 rebounds this will only seconds.

But Nicolai mentioned 2 other points we have probably discussed not enough:

You had problems with parentheses in a rulebook, leave them away in my above suggestion (anyway this text was not final!) and continue talking about distances other players during face off.

For safety reasons should we say that during a face off it is not allowed to play with any part of a body?

For the moment Nicolai should not close this discussion.

Comment 29 Oct 15:10

I think we do all agree that we want to make our sport as attractive as possible. Therefore, every rebound is one too much. It looks silly and embarrassing if the ball bounced more than two (or even one) times before it is hit. As a player and spectator, I want that the game starts immediately.

Another thing is that when I look at referees dropping the ball from more than 1m I get the feeling that those referees don't want to make any effort and they look a bit lazy.

If a referee drops the ball from a low height, the sticks stay near the floor where they belong to.

Comment 29 Oct 18:21

These are possibly the best thoughts I have read in terms of reasons for this rule!

I agree 100% with this and didn't consider it before. An attractive sport that people enjoy watching is one of the keys to ensuring a future for that sport! People already think unicycling is "crazy" enough and that it "isn't possible/sensible" to play hockey. The more people fall off or take multiple air swings missing the ball repeatedly the more it confirms people's beliefs that the sport is not sensible to play. This is a great point to a benefit of having a specific rule.

Another thing is that when I look at referees dropping the ball from more than 1m I get the feeling that those referees don't want to make any effort and they look a bit lazy.

I also agree very much with this. 90% of the time, the referee IS lazy and don't put in enough effort. People should make very clear movements when they ref, for advantage, for penalties etc. They should run BACKWARDS out of the way of play while ensuring they are still watching the play at the same time etc. If this goes part way in improving the look of refereeing I support it.

If there is no real downside to having a 50cm height (apart from changing tradition) and there is a benefit (more professional play can entice people to the sport) then I think it should be considered.

Comment 30 Oct 01:29

Thanks Nicolai and Seven, I totally agree.

Together with the part about the height, I also agree to add a rule as Herbert mentioned. Something like "All other players have to keep a distance with theirs wheels and sticks at least 2 m from where the ball is dropped."

Comment 30 Oct 05:30

How many face-off will we have during a game? OK, at least 2 plus let me guess up to 5.

How often will it happen in A-level that 2 players miss the ball after first rebound? In rare cases.

How often will it happen in B-level that 2 players miss the ball after first rebound? Only occasional, the teams usually will sent to a face-off their better skilled players (because the team likes to win the face-off) and not the one with only bottom skills.

How often will it happen in C/D/.../beginners-level that 2 players miss the ball after first rebound? More often. Now I can see your problem. Up to the present we have no height rule for dropping the ball. The referee is free to lower the height from where you drop the ball to give the teams a helper. And again we talk here only about a few seconds.

@Nicolai: "As a player and spectator, I want that the game starts immediately." Please remember: "Play starts when the ball touches the ground." and not with the first hit in a face-off! And of course as referee I run BACKWARDS out of the way of play to ensure still watching the play at the same time otherwise I would be unable to see if somebody hit the ball before the ball touches the ground. A "lazy referee" is pure for the game but is no matter of a new rule.

Comment 30 Oct 06:36

@Herbert: Sorry, I really don't see what your problem is. Maybe it is not the most important rulebook-change-proposal, however please tell us only one good reason against dropping the ball from around 50cm.

"unable to see if somebody hit the ball before the ball touches the ground" --> There is always a second referee that can judge this much better (independent of dropping height).

Comment 30 Oct 06:49

I would personally prefer one consistent height for uniformity whatever height we decide on.

Is there a down side that you can think of for 50cm Herbert? Or is it just tradition?

Comment 30 Oct 07:53

Sorry, this not the point. We are not playing ice hockey with 1000 of rules. I have no problem with 30, 50 or 100 cm dropping from. You haven´t convinced me that we need to fix a height by a new rule.

Comment 30 Oct 09:40

I also don’t see a need to add this new rule. I actually think it’s more dangerous to have the refs hand lower when he drops it cause his hand is much closer to the sticks which can strike at anytime (someone could accidentally hit early causing a foul) and he has less time to move out of the way. I’ve never heard of any ref injured by dropping the ball from any height in the last 30 years.

And the point about keeping it fast paced and interesting for the audience, well most public would/should be watching the A/B games instead of the lower C/D ones and as they are higher skilled, they are pretty good at not swinging and missing. It is a skill to hit the ball asap especially with a bounce so by adding this rule it would make the game easier which I don’t like. Plus a ball drop only happens a few times a game so the time wasted really is only a few seconds and that’s only if they miss the first or second time

Less rules are better in my opinion. My 2 cents.

Comment 30 Oct 09:42

One last thought, if we did add this rule what would happen if the ref dropped it lower or higher than 50cm and what amount is too much? 1cm? 10cm? 20cm? 40cm?

Comment 30 Oct 13:40

I agree that we don't need 1000 rules. But our rulebook is very small compared to other sports. I don't see problems adding a few rules. In this case: It is not a new rule, it needs only a few more words.

„To resume the game without penalizing one of the teams, a face-off can be used. For the face-off, the Referee drops the ball between two opposing players from a height of XXX cm."

The most important thing and my/our goal is, that all referees use approx. the same height. I have seen heights between 20cm until 200cm in the past!

Comment 30 Oct 17:08

This is correct. Our hockey rulebook was 12 pages long at last count, NHL ice hockey rulebook was 264 pages when I last checked. I think we can get away with including a few extra words without getting to that length. Realistically its weird to have our rules as part of ANOTHER rulebook like it makes more sense to have individual uploads of each division on IUF, why do I need to trawl through every track event, muni, urban event to find the hockey rules each time I need to look something up quickly. You don't see every olympic sports rules in the one booklet.

„To resume the game without penalizing one of the teams, a face-off can be used. For the face-off, the Referee drops the ball between two opposing players from a height of XXX cm."

Seems like a minimal addition in my opinion.

The most important thing and my/our goal is, that all referees use approx. the same height. I have seen heights between 20cm until 200cm in the past!

I agree, I dont like the fact that we get to unicon and every ref interprets the rules differently. Usually there is uniformity between German and Suisse because they play together more often but each time we go to unicon the Australians find that the europeans do something that we have interpreted differently (or isnt in the rulebook at all) and we then go and adapt/introduce it.

2016 we saw that referees would hold their arm up for "freeshot/advantage" to indicate that a team was starting after a goal. We didn't do this and I don't think it is really in the rulebook. 2018 we saw that referees blow the whistle as well as dropping the ball for a faceoff. We used more of an ice hockey start where the timer starts without a whistle when the ball hits the ground.

If you put in all the asian countries who are now playing and their lower refereeing skill a better rulebook would bring them to a similar standard sooner.

Comment 01 Nov 17:09

Sorry on coming late into the discussion... This seems to have been discussed in a very short period of time compared to the others! After reading what everyone has already discussed, here's my opinion:

I agree we need to define how a face-off is executed. Especially where the players partaking in the face-off should be.

I also agree we should indicate the players should not have their 'first touch' of the ball with their hands.

At first, I didn't really see an issue with dropping the ball at ~1m. However, I do not think we should be dropping it 40-50cm from the ground, as Jamey said - I also think the closer the referee drops it to the floor, the more in danger they are of being hit. Maybe we could agree on rather than specifying a certain height in 'cm', a better identifier for the referee to use is "the average seat height of the two players involved in the face-off". This would stop referees from dropping it 'too high', gives the referee a specific guideline to work with when dropping the ball, and also allows the ball to be dropped at a lower height if children are playing.

Comment 01 Nov 18:45

It is a bit of a catch 22. Dropping lower reduces stuffing about for novice players but also increases chances of referee getting hand hit by novice/idiot players.

It depends on what height seems reasonable and safe to drop from. I am going to try 50cm tomorrow and see how hard it is to drop and remove my hand.

Comment 03 Nov 15:14

I talked with other organisers in our Australian league, the first comment after asking about dropping from 50cm was will this not increase the chance of the referee getting his hand hit.

I am not sure if it is a rational fear or not (we had only 8 people at training yesterday so no referees to try it with) but it is still a point of discussion

Comment 04 Nov 17:44

I used the chance this weekend on training sessions to speak with several players from German level A to D, all of them were with their teams on UNICONs and do normally referee for their teams in the national league and on UNICONs. Here the summery of their opinions:

The height from where drops the ball: No need to fix a height, leave it to referees decision. Who cares as often a ball rebounce and as long time it will take until a player will hit the ball, only maximum a few seconds.

No play with hands or kicks allowed: Where is the problem? "The stick, the unicycle and the whole body can be used to play the ball." (14B.7.4)

If a player tried to play the ball during a face-off with his hand very low it is his own risk to have afterwards a broken finger, normally he will not retry. (Try to kick the ball is maybe a question of object but not a question of a rule, it should be still allowed.)

Something like "All other players have to keep a distance with theirs wheels and sticks at least 2 m from where the ball is dropped." meets general agreement.

Comment 04 Nov 18:11

I don't agree with this, we have a referee who is 6 foot 5 and drops the ball from shoulder height, it looks stupid when the ball is being dropped from that height particularly when it is above the heads of riders. I believe SOME height should be given.

No play with hands or kicks allowed: Where is the problem? "The stick, the unicycle and the whole body can be used to play the ball." (14B.7.4) If a player tried to play the ball during a face-off with his hand very low it is his own risk to have afterwards a broken finger, normally he will not retry. (Try to kick the ball is maybe a question of object but not a question of a rule, it should be still allowed.)

I actually tend to agree with this, I kind of see this in terms of Darwins theory of evolution, if you think sticking your hand into play where the ball is about to be smacked then you are an idiot. I think foot may still be a feasible/safe option for faceoffs because your shoe will protect your foot reasonably well.

Something like "All other players have to keep a distance with theirs wheels and sticks at least 2 m from where the ball is dropped." meets general agreement.

I agree

Comment 06 Nov 15:42

I agree that the rulebook should be more clear about the face off.

"All other players have to keep a distance with theirs wheels and sticks at least 2 m from where the ball is dropped."

I think we should add this. Most of the time the players stick to this rule anyway.

I also like the idea of giving an approx. height for the face off. I could imagine that a face off from over 100cm or more temts the players to try to play the ball before he touches the ground. I would prefer a rule that don’t contains an abstract number (like 50cm or 100cm). It would be more practical to choose the hight of the saddle of the players or something between their knees and hips.

Comment 07 Nov 05:27

My Summery:

1. Height

For compromise: Taken text from "High stick" > "must always be below the players’ own hips": This as a maximum height would be easy to referee (nonsense heights would not be allowed) and would allows the referee if needed to drop the ball from lower height.

2. Only play with sticks

this seams that here is no need to bring this to rule

3. Distance all other players

Something like "All other players have to keep a distance with theirs wheels and sticks at least 2 m from where the ball is dropped." meets general agreement. Probably better wording remains.

Comment 18 Nov 19:09

The last 2 weekends I was busy on tournaments. I referred several times and had the chance to look at the behaviour of other referees and players.

Most heights for dropping the ball was between 1,2 m and 0,8 m, this fits to the heights mentioned at the beginning of this discussion. Only one referee dropped the ball from the height of his shoulder; I asked him why he did this: Its was his second time as first referee and he was afraid of his hands.

All face off I have seen, no one tried to play the ball with his hand at a face off. There was in no case a problem with "all other players during the face off.

Now I questioning myself do we really need a rule change or is it more a nice to have.

But I recognized something else.

14B.6.4 Face-off is telling us: "...Play starts when the ball touches the ground. ..." > Without whistle! (???)

and

14B.7.6 Start and Stop is telling us: "Starting and resuming the game is always initiated by the Referee’s whistle. ..."

What was my and other referees behaviour? All other referees and myself we whistled when the ball touched the ground.

Now my question, what is your behaviour and is there probably a need to clarify the rule?

Comment 18 Nov 19:37

My Summery:

1. Height

2. Only play with sticks

this seams that here is no need to bring this to rule

3. Distance all other players

Something like "All other players have to keep a distance with theirs wheels and sticks at least 2 m from where the ball is dropped." meets general agreement. Probably better wording remains.

I agree with the above, I could also agree to dropit lower but I dont really mind as long as it is below hip height.

I THINK most agree it should be restricted to below hip height unless I hear from anyone in the next day or two this will go to proposal.

Comment 19 Nov 13:03

I agree with the summary.