Define "Pedal Grab" (PG)
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
Following the discussion on "Thoughts on points on pedal grabs?" it seems like we need a clear definition of what consists a pedal grab. Please continue the discussion here!
Comment
Not a perfect defined definition but it can be a start.
A pedalgrap is a grap with the bottom of the pedal on a given obstacle. By using a pedalgrap the person clearly puts pressure on the pedal of which the bottom is in contact with the obstacle. The foot can touch the obstacle directly as long as the foot is in full contact with the pedal. A pedalgrap is completed by a movement which clearly shows a takeoff from the pedal and not from the tire. The pedal itself is allowed to reposition itself as long as the pedal does not move more than 10cm which is the +- the width of the pedal (this to avoid skinny pedalgrapping).
What is not a pedalgrap:
- Using the side a pedal to balance against an obstacle in a narrow place.
- When the tire is in full contact with the surface below and the rider is able to jump by putting pressure on the tire instead of making a pedalgrap movement. E.x when a rider gets on high small stairs, the pedal of the rider might though the stair when jumping without using the pedal to get on the stairs.
- The foot is in contact with the obstacle but not with the pedal (this is a fault, the person should quit the line and start over again).
Comment
Not a perfect defined definition but it can be a start.
A pedalgrab is defined as when the rider places their weight on an obstacle through the bottom of the pedal which is in contact with the obstacle.
The foot may touch an obstacle as long as the foot is in full contact with the top of the pedal.
A pedal grab is considered complete after a clear takeoff by pushing through the pedal and not though the tyre. The pedal may be re-positioned during a pedal grab without being considered a new pedal grab as long as the pedal does not move more than the width of the pedal away from the initial pedal position.
It is not considered a pedalgrab when:
- The side of a pedal is resting against an obstacle and providing balance e.g. in a narrow obstacle.
- as well a the pedal being placed on an object, the tyre is also in full contact with the surface below and the rider performs a jump by producing force through the tyre on this surface. e.g. When a riders tyre is on a platform with the pedal on a higher ledge but the riders produces force through the tyre on the lower platform.
- The majority of the foot is in contact with the obstacle and not with the pedal (this is a dab and the person must restart the line).
I tried to rewrite it a little bit but I think the essence of your rules are decent Tim. The one in bold I believe is the most contentious as if we allow to reposition slightly (under10cm) what if someone only repositions 5cm at a time and keeps moving 5cm down a skinny. Do we say you can only reposition 10cm within the initial pedal grab? Or do we not allow any repositioning that involves hopping in the air at all.
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I think your formulation is clear enough. The key word here is "initial pedal position". I think it looks pretty clean.
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The only problem I see is
The pedal may be re-positioned during a pedal grab without being considered a new pedal grab as long as the pedal does not move more than the width of the pedal away from the initial pedal position.
Initial pedal position COULD be claimed to be the pedal position right before readjusting 5cm, not the pedal position where they first hit the object.
I think what we want it to mean is that once you pedal grab an object you cant move more than 5cm away from that specific spot or becomes a new pedal grab?
It could currently be read as once you pedal grab an object you cant move more than 5cm away (each correction) from where your pedal was previously
This makes it a bit more bulletproof I think. BUt may could still be improved
The pedal may be re-positioned during a pedal grab without being considered a new pedal grab as long as the pedal does not move more than the width of the pedal away from the initial position on the obstacle. i.e. it is not acceptable to traverse an object in continuous half pedal width grabs
Comment
Yes, adding obstacle clarifies the whole thing. Seems pretty solid now, anything else to improve upon this? Or should we go straight to proposal?
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I also think it is a pretty clean definition! What I am unsure about is that it says "it is not acceptable to traverse an object in continuous half with pedal grabs" - from this definition it seems to me that it is completely forbidden to do this - which is actually understandable as it would be pretty hard to tell how many pedal grabs should be counted if someone does this anyway.
Comment
The pedal may be re-positioned during a pedal grab without being considered a new pedal grab as long as the pedal does not move more than the width of the pedal away from the initial position on the obstacle. i.e. traversing an object in continuous half pedal width grabs will result in multiple pedal grabs recorded
Probably better. Technically you can go across a whole obstacle in little pedal grabs, once they do 4(?) they will have the maximum deductions anyway. Obviously we don't WANT people to take all the deductions just to complete the line but I think it takes a lot more effort to come up with a rule saying you cant pedal grab across an entire skinny.
Comment
So under this rule, grinds would not be allowed?
I like Tim's definition so far and Steve's revisions/ addition.
I would like to the add to the definition that: the pedal grab is complete as soon as the pedal leaves contact with the obstacle.
I also think the definition should be split into the "beginning" or "initiating" a pedal grab and "completing" a pedal grab.
I think we should all review the wording to make it as clear as possible so that somebody who knows little about trials would be able to get the idea quickly as we need this definition to be crystal clear to train judges
Nice!!
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Comment
I thought when we were talking about "re positioning" we meant the pedal could leave the surface and be placed back onto it in essentially the same spot (as long as not more than half a pedal width away) without counting as another pedal grab. Like when someone pedal grabs but kind of hops about on the spot a tiny bit on their pedal as they overbalance.
I took repositioning to mean the pedal leaves the obstacle.
I thought this was Emile's idea also because we talked about the pedal not being able to move further than the "initial" pedal position. I took initial pedal position to mean where the pedal was before it slightly left the surface to readjust.
I believe that this definition would allow grinds because while grinding you are in one pedal grab the entire distance and you are not leaving the obstacle surface and then contacting it again.
Can people clarrify if their thinking was different?
Comment
It all depends if the pedal is not allowed to move more than it's width, or if you can't hop further than the width of the pedal.
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Can somebody explain to me why a pedal reposition is needed? Can't people pivot themselves into position and not become airborne?
The reason I'm asking is because I think that if the pedal deductions rule is to be successful and taught to volunteer judges, the rules need to be as simple as possible and crystal clear. I envision a definition that could be explained and understood to a non-rider in less than a minute. Special conditions of tire and pedal combos are confusing, as well as repositioning.
I think that something that would simplify things a lot would be: as soon as the pedal leaves contact with the obstacle, the pedal grab is complete and the rider can either go to tire or initiate a new pedal grab.
My ideal definition
A pedalgrab is composed of two parts:
Initiation: the rider initiates the pedal grab by landing on the bottom of their pedal on an obstacle. The rider must place their bodyweight through this pedal contact. The foot may touch the obstacle as long as the foot is in full contact with the top of the pedal. The rider may pivot and twist on the pedal for as long as they wish.
Completion: the pedal grab is complete once the rider removes contact of the pedal from the obstacle. The rider may choose to go to tire or initiate a new pedal grab.
It is not considered a pedalgrab when:
- The side of a pedal rests against an obstacle and providing balance e.g. in a narrow obstacle.
- the bottom of the pedal touches the obstacle briefly and the bodyweight of the rider is not visibly transfered through the pedal to the obstacle.
- The majority of the foot is in contact with the obstacle and not with the pedal (this is a dab and the person must restart the line).
Comment
From the perspective of finding judges and teaching them their job, this is a great proposal, Dan.
It's simple and clear.
I can't really comment on the riding side of it, but to me it seems reasonable to not allow removing contact without getting another deduction.
Comment
Its a fair point to keep it simple and just count it as a new pedal grab. I was thinking how often a rider pedal grabs and then repositions by using tiny hops in place to get balance. I thought that it may be too harsh as I think most riders will get all their deductions from their first pedal grab.
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Rider input would be nice...
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I see the repositions making technical pedal grabs easier: pg to posts, pg to transitions, pg to rails, any non horizontally uniform surface.
A pg reposition rule would be more forgiving in these circumstances to get yourself in the ideal position to get back to tire.
However, if you are precise with your grabs you don't need the reposition, especially if you can pivot with the pedal "glued" to the obstacle.
Tim, Erik, Christian, Mark? :)
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My experience is that reposition are very common, especially in difficult situations such as, skinnies, rails, posts, tiko tico. They are used to get into a good position for the PG and not to traverse an object.
The problem I see with prohibiting reposition are: Lot of times a reposition are so small that it can be hard to tell if the whole pedal was in the air. I believe it will be pretty difficult for the judges to count the repositions because often it goes really fast, it can be multiple small repositions in a very short period of time.
I think Tim's definition with Steve's addition is pretty good.
Comment
I agree that the repositions are more forgiving to riders however this will be a massive change as it is for all riders in finals, it will change how people have to approach lines and there will definitely be a big learning curve for riders. In a perfect world I think riders would be doing minimal pedal grabs and all would be pinpoint but I think some leeway in the beginning while people get used to new rules would be good. In time you could then force people to get more exact with each pedal grab by making the rule more strict once again.
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I would rather have the riders be able to adjust their pedal grab.
This is an implamentation only for finals, the means you need around 10 people that know what a pedal grab is to judge the finals lines.
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I think small repositions as we discussed earlier could be allowed - however I also see the advantage of Dan's suggestion, in most cases riders don't do correction hops when doing a pedal grab.
2 other things that I was thinking of:
- It might sounds silly, but this definition is exclusively for pedal grabs, but how about crank grabs? Furthermore, with a bit of practice, you can learn how to do a crank grab without the pedal even touching the obstacle (imagine landing on your crank with the pedal in the highest position - just like when doing a hard-slide). I have done this before and I won't say it is as efficient as a pedal grab, but I thought it worth discussing - as if we look at the definition strictly, it is not covered at the moment.
- what if a rider's seat handle / seat touches the obstacle while doing a pedal grab? According to 12B.5.4, it is a dab (b. Allowing any part of the cycle except the tire, rim, spokes, crank arms, pedals,or bearing caps to touch the ground or obstacle.), however judges usually allow it. Either way, I think it might be useful to set it in this section.
Comment
A pedal/crank grab is defined as the rider placing their weight on an obstacle through the bottom of the pedal/crank which is in contact with the obstacle.
The foot may touch an obstacle as long as the foot is in full contact with the top of the pedal/crank.
A pedal/crank grab is considered complete after a clear takeoff by pushing through the pedal/crank and not though the tyre.
The pedal/crank may be re-positioned during a pedal/crank grab without being considered a new grab as long as the pedal does not move more than the width of the pedal away from the initial position on the obstacle. i.e. traversing an object in continuous half pedal width grabs will result in multiple pedal/crank grabs recorded
If we don't want to allow crank grabs either (which I assume we don't) I think just putting pedal/crank grab in almost every instance works. Even using not repositioning more than half a pedal width still works for almost all crank grabs as most have the pedal on the obstacle also so it can be used to measure distance.
Mark makes a good point that riders can land a crank grab with cranks in the 12-6 oclock (hardslide) position, but you can still technically use a half pedal width to measure repositioning and I cant see riders trying to reposition multiple times in this position as surely it is nowhere near stable enough on the very tip of the crank.
Comment
Thanks for all the additions to my first definition :) ! I like them a lot.
About the repositioning, although it might be harder to judge, as Erik I also think small (smaller than 5cm) repositions should be allowed.
As Steven mentioned above: put pedal/crank to avoid confusion about the crankgraps.
I think we have a solid definition now :)
Comment
In regards to the new proposal 20
https://iuf-rulebook-2018.committees.unicycling-software.com/proposals/20
Text:
A pedal/crank grab is defined as the rider placing their weight on an obstacle through the bottom of the pedal/crank which is in contact with the obstacle.
- The foot may touch an obstacle as long as the foot is in full contact with the top of the pedal/crank.
- A pedal/crank grab is considered complete after a clear takeoff by pushing through the pedal/crank and not though the tyre.
- The pedal/crank may be re-positioned during a pedal/crank grab without being considered a new grab as long as the pedal does not move more than the width of the pedal away from the initial position on the obstacle. i.e. traversing an object in continuous half pedal width grabs will result in multiple pedal/crank grabs recorded.
The new rules we voted for had this included under scoring as we needed to define what constituted a new pedal grab see text below
A pedal/crank grab is defined as the rider placing their weight on an obstacle through the bottom of the pedal/crank which is in contact with the obstacle (see 12B.5.4 Definition Of “Cleaning”).
A pedal/crank grab is considered complete after a clear takeoff by pushing through the pedal/crank and not though the tyre.
The pedal/crank may be re-positioned during a pedal/crank grab without being considered a new grab as long as the pedal does not move more than the width of the pedal away from the initial position on the obstacle. i.e. traversing an object in continuous half pedal width grabs will result in multiple pedal/crank grabs recorded.
They are largely the same text so probably not needing to be changed HOWEVER if we do look to alter anything it would be to changing anything in rule 12B.5.4 "Definition of Cleaning". Currently THAT text reads
When hooking a pedal on an obstacle, it is acceptable for a rider’s heel and/or toe to initially contact the ground, as long as most of the rider’s foot is still on the pedal. However, after a rider is established in position, weighting the heel or toe on the ground constitutes a dab.
We don't need to include anything in 12B.5.4 in regards to what constitutes a new pedal grab or traversing objects as multiple pedal grabs and traversing obstacles has no penalty in preliminary rounds.
So in summary:
The definition of pedal grab in 12B.5.4 should be brief and explain what a pedal grab is (not how it is scored)
The scoring later in the rulebook provides the difference in rules between pedal grabs for prelims and pedal grabs for finals. It has to include further info on when a pedal grab will be considered complete as there are specific penalties in finals not present in prelims.
I think we don't need any further change here?
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If there isn't more discussion or changes, is it possible for Proposal 20 to go to vote?
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This needs no change as it was included in the score change
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This sentence is not included with the score change of Proposal #13:
"- The foot may touch an obstacle as long as the foot is in full contact with the top of the pedal/crank. "
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I think the definition is workable at the moment, the trials section needs a through Editing and we will catch it for next Rulebook.