Excluding coasting on a freewheeling unicycle from the Coasting disciplinesThis discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.
Comments about this discussion:
The sentence you have marked bold in your proposal is already included in the rules in a similar form...
Coasting for the coasting disciplines is defined as riding without touching pedals, cranks or any part of the wheel.
The "old" rule:
3B.6.2 Coasting Events
An event to determine which rider coasts the furthest distance. Riders’ coasting distances are measured from a ‘starting line’ with a 5 meter minimum, which will be marked by a ‘qualifying line.’ If the rider does not cross the qualifying line it will count as a failed attempt. The farthest distance from the line wins. The distance is measured to the rearmost part of the rider that touches the ground when dismounting, or to the rear of the tire where the rider stops coasting. Remounting is not allowed. Riders must not touch any part of their tires, wheels or pedals while coasting. Riders get two attempts. If a rider crosses the coasting line (front of the tire) not in coasting position, he or she is disqualified in that attempt. The riding surface should be as smooth and clean as possible, and it may be straight or curved. Ample time must be allowed for all competitors to make some practice runs on the course before the official start. The type of event(s) to be used should be announced well in advance of the competition. Crank arm rules do not apply in any coasting or gliding events.
For me the two sentences are actually identical in content, but I think I like the wording of the old version more than the new one.
If I had seen that, I would not have made the proposal.
Having said that, I must say that I like my version better in three aspects:
1. Touching the cranks must also be forbidden. It's probably very hard to control the unicycle by only contacting the cranks, but theoretically possible and not compatible with coasting.
2. My sentence is formulated as a definition, not as riding where certain actions are disallowed. This is similar to 3B.6.3 where gliding is also defined in terms of what it is, not in what you must not do.
3. I think the position of the original sentence within the paragraph is weird. Whatever sentence we choose, it is so essential to the concept of coasting that it should be placed earlier in the text. (This, by the way, is in my view quite common in the Rulebook, that elements don't have a logical sequence.)
Now that we are in this situation, I would prefer to keep my sentence and delete the original one.
To 1: For me, the cranks are part of the wheel, but I'm realizing that's probably just my understanding and so you're right that it's clearer to mention them explicitly.
To 2: You're right that we should have a definition of coasting in the rules - also because we refer to it in the gliding rules... For me as a coaster it was probably always too clear how the whole thing should look like. But I still don't like the sentence, especially the phrase "Coasting for the coasting disciplines" seems strange to me. We should not create a definition for the track coasting competition, but use a general definition of what is meant by coasting when riding a unicycle.
How about this: Coasting is defined as riding without touching the tire, pedals, cranks or any part of the wheel.
I would like to keep "the tire" even if it is included in "any part of the wheel", because this is the part of the wheel that is accidentally touched by most riders and therefore the attempt is finished. Usually there are no other touches and so I think it makes sense to put the tire on first place and name it explicitly.
To 3: I totally agree with you on that.
To 1. Indeed, if we mention pedals, I think we should mention cranks too.
To 2. It's OK to mention the tire explicitly. I will add that.
I disagree on your opinion on "for the coasting disciplines". Coasting on a bicycle is when you ride while holding the pedals still. The same can be said for such riding on a freewheeling unicycle, which I think is perfectly fine. But that form of coasting is exactly what I want to exclude for the coasting disciplines in the Rulebook. My sentence is not to prescribe generally what people should understand by coasting on a unicycle, just what the Rulebook means by it for the Coasting disciplines.
I have added the tire but not as first item.
Normal riding is done through the pedals. So not using the pedals is what sets coasting apart from normal riding. If I have the tire first, it is as if coasting is a non-tire variant of wheel walking. While you could consider it that way, I don't like it as a definition.
Klaas wrote: "It's probably very hard to control the unicycle by only contacting the cranks, but theoretically possible and not compatible with coasting." -- I haven't tried this myself, but I would estimate that putting your feet on top of the cranks (while making sure not to contact the pedals (or by taking the pedals off) would be at least 50% of the difference in difficulty between "regular" coasting and Freewheel uni coasting. Definitely gotta mention the cranks. :-)
In fact, it's a good thing we specify "any other part of the wheel because people have been know to compete in Gliding events without their pedals, and sometimes even the cranks (to keep the wheel from oscillating). They could also try to use the ends of the axle if we didn't say otherwise.
I agree with removing the old sentence, replacing it with your proposed wording, and including "tire" so people don't try to become rules-lawyers.
@Klaas: In unicycling, "coasting" is a skill (which is also defined in the standard skill list) - of course it may have a different meaning in other areas, but the disciplin Tack Coasting is exactly this unicycle "coasting" skill. And so I don't like it to define "coasting for the coasting disciplines". Leave your feet on the pedals on a freewheel and "coasting" in this way is not the unicycle skill and not the "coasting" that is meant by "coasting" when riding a unicycle... I think if we write in everything that we define for what the definition is made for, the rules will be unnecessarily inflated - the position of the definition makes it clear anyway what it is made for.
Maybe we should add the definition of coasting to 1D.1. To be sure, we could add tot that definition, that riding a freewheel unicycle with the feet on the pedals while not rotating them, is not coasting. (Text may be cleaner.) Meanwhile, we can leave 8E.1.11 for clarity, also because I'm not in that committee.
BTW, a freewheel unicycle is also defined in 1D.1 although I don't know what for.
I agree that "coasting" is a unicycle skill in the traditional sense and that riding a freewheel unicycle, or "freewheeling" is an entirely different skill with a different name. Perhaps that should be described somewhere, but I agree with Jan's sense of things.
Why do we need to describe freewheeling? Does it occur anywhere in the Rulebook. A freewheel unicycle is indeed defined, but I think also that is not needed. See my previous comment.
The only reason I see to define freewheeling is to describe it as different from coasting. But perhaps this is not necessary.
I suggest to add to the definition of coasting that riding a freewheel unicycle with the feet on the pedals while not rotating them, is not coasting. (Text may be cleaner.) That way we define coasting unambiguously without dedicating a separate definition to freewheeling with the sole purpose of defining coasting more clearly.
I think the proposal must keep the "Freewheeling on a freewheel unicycle is not coasting", or at least a version of that, to make it clear you can't use a freewheel uni. I was going to say otherwise, thinking people could do traditional coasting on it, but I realize the transition to coasting would not be the same; when you take your feet away from the pedals they won't keep going around, making the transition easier, and probably the entirety of the coast nominally easier if the pedals aren't moving.
The proposal does have that sentence, and I have no intention of deleting it (on the contrary, I have recently added it).
However, it does not address your concern, because it does not say that coasting on the freewheel unicycle is not coasting.
I don't think it is necessary to exclude freewheeling unicycles from coasting, be it in Track Coasting, Standard Skill or perhaps Skill Levels. E.g. for Track Coasting (which I cannot do myself) I would think that on a freewheeling unicycle, it is more difficult to reach a high starting speed (and thus a competitive result) because at high speed you are more likely to need back pressure to keep balance.
If the currently proposed rule gets passed and then turns out to be a problem, we can try and solve it in the next Rulebook round. Keep an eye on it John. :-)
I have my doubts but okay. I picture someone speeding up to the start line, stopping the pedals, and then putting his/her feet up on the crown. Could be a cheat move, but let's let the riders determine which is true. Racing Referees, on the other hand, might interpret this rule either way in terms of allowing freewheel unis.
I can also picture what you describe. But apart from my doubt about the competitive advantage, I think that very few riders have a freewheeling uni in the first place. So I say, let's first see if there is a problem with this before we put this somehow in the rules.
Note that in the old rule, freewheeling unis were also allowed. Nothing has changed in that department.
As to your last sentence: in my view, the correct interpretation of the rule is that freewheeling unis are allowed in coasting (there is nothing that forbids them), as long as the coasting action (after the transition to coasting in whatever way) is properly done without feet touching the pedals.
But hey, let's hear from others if they think that speeding up on a freewheeling unicycling before transitioning to coasting should be ruled out.
I have never tried to do normal coasting on a freewheel unicycle, but I would join Klaas and claim that it's not advantageous for reaching a high starting speed. However, I can also understand Johns' doubts about the transition to coasting. However, another thought came to me that I would consider to be more important than the transition to coasting. With a freewheel unicycle, the pedals would be horizontal all the time during the coast (or in any other fixed position relative to the ground), or am I missing something? Then it could be that such a freewheel unicycle has a much lower unbalance when coasting and therefore runs much smoother - and that would definitely be an advantage. But since I've never tried it yet, I'm not sure about it.
On the other hand, most of the participants do the coasting on a unicycle of the 20 Class, which I have hardly ever seen as a freewheel before. Freewheel unicycles are mostly Munis that wouldn't even fit into the 24 Class and are therefore out of the range at track races anyway. So in practice the whole thing might not be an issue anyway.
I agree with waiting to see if it's an issue before creating a rule about it.
I just realised that since the proposal is to move this definition (in a slightly different form) to the Main Chapter, it must (also?) be voted upon in the Main Committee. I have no time now, but I will arrange for this tomorrow.
Am I right that the changes only apply to the Definitions section (1D.1) and that the Coasting rule in the Track section (3B.6.2) should remain unchanged?
You are right that the proposal text as it is, implies that. But that is not my intention. I will have to change a few things. My idea is to have a definition of Coasting in 1D.1, that is valid for both Track Coasting and Coasting under Standard Skills. Thus, 3B.6.2 and 8E.1.11 will rely on this new definition in 1D.1 and IMHO should not repeat it in some form.
This is a relatively simple proposal, but it has impact on three chapters in the Rulebook that "belong" to three different subcommittees.
This proposal in Track has been Set-Aside (Tabled / Put on hold) by me. I have created a new discussion and Proposal in the Main Committee, because this issue (Definition of Coasting) impacts three committees (Main Committee / Track / Freestyle) because it requires changes in three chapters. Not sure how to go about such a thing.
The best place for a change affecting multiple chapters is in the Main subcommittee.