Definition of "in control" moment for finishing a road race
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
Since the 2017 Rulebook, the definition for being "in control" has been changed for track races. It has not been changed for road races. Therefore, we now have a discrepancy which I think is unwanted.
The finish moment for both track and road races is when the front of the tyre crosses the finish.
But in track races, the same moment is when "in control" is judged, see 2B.6.15.
While in Road racing, the old rule is still valid, in which after the race is over and the time has been recorded, the result of this rider depends on what happens after finishing - see 4B.5.8.
This difference doesn't make sense. I am therefore in favour of using the "in control" moment rule for Track racing also for Road racing. (And ideally also for Muni races, but I'm not in that committee.)
Thoughts?
Comment
I guess it's a good idea that it is the same for track, road and muni.
In track "control is defined as: "the rider has both feet on the pedals. If the rider does cross the finish line but not in control, the rider must back up on foot, remount and ride across the finish line in control."
Actually the text from 2B.6.15 could almost be taken 1:1 for road.
I don't know about muni, but I guess we could do the same as for road.
Comment
You must distinguish between
(a) the definition of being in control,
(b) the moment when this is judged, and
(c) the penalty for not being in control.
I don't want to change anything about (a) and (c).
(a) is basically the same in Track, Road and Muni, with some exception for wheelwalk and onefoot.
(c) is different depending on discipline (DQ or backup/remount in Track, 5 seconds penalty in Road), which is OK for me.
My intention is only to change (b) the moment at which "in control" must be judged. In Road racing this is when the rearmost part of the wheel crosses the finish - in my opinion this should become when the front of the wheel crosses the finish.
We cannot 1:1 copy the Track rule to Road because of the different penalty.
If we agree about the principle, I will propose a text for 4B.5.8.
Comment
For road racing I suggest following:
a) In control: the rider has both feet on the pedals
b) since the front of wheel cross finish line until the rear part of wheel cross second line which is 10 m behind finish line
Due to higher speed, at least 10m sector is needed for riders to safely slow down. Stopping in this sector is dangerous for approaching riders.
c) Time penalty, 1s for each km of the race course length but not less than 5s.
100s penalty instead 5s on 100km race will stronger press the riders to not stop immediately behind the finish line.
Comment
Your (a) is also the current rule. I agree that this doesn't need to be changed.
Your (b) and (c) are intended to encourage riders to ride on after the finish line for at least 10 meters. I agree that this is desirable.
But I don't agree that riders should be penalised for not doing so. Suppose that the two riders in front have almost equal time when crossing the finish. In my opinion, the first one to cross the finish in control should be the legitimate winner. If he UPD's shortly after the finish, that should not affect the result, in my opinion.
Also, if riders need to carry on for 10 meters, you are just relocating the problem. If a bunch of riders dismounts just after 10 meters, then they may obstruct a next rider to complete 10 meters after the finish.
I am not against discussing this, but let me repeat that my only intention of starting this discussion is to harmonise the moment when "in control" is judged, between Track and Road (and ideally Muni, too). Your suggestion moves the other way: even greater difference between Track and Road.
Comment
Riders should maintain control on unicycle for the safety of their own and other riders in the group. Loosing control on the fish line is particularly dangerous as the speed is higher during tight finish. I am not in favor to protect faster riders if they ride beyond safety margin.
BTW 10m for fastest group is the distance they fly in case of UPD.
If riders are obstructed to safely complete 10m mounted they should not be penalized. Penalty should go to the guilty only.
Comment
As far as I read up to now, we are more discussing about the penalty than about when "in control" is judged.
I am in favour of having that moment when the front of the wheel crosses the finish line. If not then the rider must get back on and cross the line in control. I don't think that penalty seconds should be given if a rider doesn't cross in control. He simply goes back to the point where he lost control and remounts.
However I completely agree that there must be enough space for fast riders to slow down (and for this I think 10m is not enough). But that is more a question of organization at the event itself than a rulebook discussion.
Comment
I put together a "Finishes Working Doc" to make it easier to see the currently existing rules all in one place:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9xi40cw613p9xe5/Race%20Finishes%20Working%20Doc.rtf?dl=0
(I also have notes at the bottom of what I'm trying to put together)
It would be nice to have one rule to govern finishes for all the forms of racing, but this is impossible due to the different requirements of some of some races. So we can't have a single rule, but we can build one on a consistent central idea, with the necessary variants depending on the race type.
Historical background: Back in the day, when all unicycle racing was on 24" wheels, we had a problem because you would stop the clock as the tire broke the plane of the finish line, but a rider could still be disqualified (or penalized) after that. This never worked well in practice. The concept that you must ride "completely across" the finish line was good, and it encouraged cleaner finishes. But making a rider stop, back up, re-mount and cross the line again was always a problem, because usually there was some confusion at that moment, with the rider not necessarily getting clear instructions, so even more time was wasted. I've seen many riders not be able to remount at that point, without requiring several tries, while getting passed in the process.
Let's please make all of this more simple. Definitely I agree with Klass' original idea here, to bring the different rules into line, but we should go further. The newer, Road Racing Finishes rule is better written, and I recommend we use that as the base. Next, let's get rid of the "back up and remount" thing, and possibly replace all cases of that with time penalties for various reasons, including safety.
I believe our goal should be to encourage riders to make clean finishes, or face a known amount of penalty. If you are more than five seconds ahead of the next rider, no need to push it so hard. But if you are battling for position, you will be reminded that if you push it too hard, you will definitely not win.
Maksym has a good idea for safety in the finish area, but I think it should be addressed separately from penalties, in its own proposal. It could/should be built into any non-track race as a set of guidelines for the finish area. This includes Muni, where some people stop right after the line, which can cause problems for riders behind them. Riders should be instructed at the start of all non-track races, that they should not stop in the finish line area, but continue through (preferably a marked spot) where there is more space. People at the finish can also be present to make sure people keep moving, often into a chute, to get their information collected, if needed.
Sorry if this idea is too big; I could also move it, but I consider it a larger version of making things consistent, as Klaas intended. Here's my working model. Note this is presented as a unified rule, as should be any rule that applies across disciplines, but that can make things confusing, so it can also be broken apart as our current rules are:
---------------------
#.#.## Finishes
Finish times are determined when the front of the tire first crosses the vertical plane of the nearest edge of the finish line. Riders must ride across the finish line in control of the unicycle. “Control” is defined by the rearmost part of the wheel crossing completely over the vertical finish plane (as defined above) with the rider having both feet on the pedals (with some exceptions, noted below).
The penalty for finishing out of control depends on the racing event. The finish time is still measured by when the wheel crosses the vertical finish plane, with the penalty time added to that.
Track Penalties:
Exceptions to the Control definition: In one-foot races, the rider must have one foot on a pedal. In wheel walk races: the rider continues to wheel walk until the rearmost part of the tire crosses the finish plane.
In races where dismounting is not allowed, the rider is disqualified.
In the 800m, x seconds will be applied (I recommend five)
In the 4x100 Relay, y seconds will be applied (I recommend five)
Road Penalties:
A five second penalty will be applied. In the case where a rider is finishing with a broken unicycle, the rider must bring at minimum the wheel to the finish line, and time is still taken when the wheel crosses the finish line. The 5 second penalty is applied.
Muni Penalties:
Uphill: x seconds will be applied (I recommend five)
Cross Country and Downhill: Current rule says 10, but I also recommend five, to make them consistent.
Cyclocross Penalty:
Because riders are allowed to cross the finish riding, walking or running, there are no penalties.
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I don't feel a need for time penalties to be different, except possibly based on the typical speed of the race. Longer times for faster races, like Road. Or keep it simple, at 5 (or a different number), that's easy for everyone to remember, but enough to serve as incentive to try to stay in control.
Comment
I applaud this effort to unify finish rules for different disciplines.
Since subcommittees are split according to disciplines, it may be difficult to coordinate this. After all, we are in the Road subcommittee here. I guess finish rules don't fit in Chapter 1 of the Rulebook, do they? Thoughts on how to tackle this?
I would agree with 5 seconds penalty for all races (Track, Road and Muni). It is enough to prevent any not-in-control-rider from winning, in the case that two (or more) riders are closely finishing. Also (and this is important outside of close finishes), I estimate that going extra fast across the finish line would not yield more than one second (*). The penalty for it going wrong (i.e. not finishing in control) should be more than the typical gain, but not excessively more. After all, it's not a crime to not be in control.
The main thing I don't like in John's writeup is that he goes back to assessing "in control" when the rearmost part of the wheel crosses the finish.
John mentions "the newer, Road Racing Finishing rule".
But in this respect (at which moment to assess "in control"), the Road Finish rule is actually older. It is the Track finish rule that is newer in this respect, i.e. "in control" is assessed when the front of the wheel crosses the finish line. (This update is from the 2016/2017 Rulebook round.)
The reasoning behind this is that any rider should finish in control. And the finish is when the front of the wheel crosses the line. The result of the race should not depend on something that happens after the race is done.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
(*) Because it is only about the last ten metres, at most. If you fall clearly before the finish line, it's not a case of finishing-not-in-control, but a case of falling mid-race - you have to remount and continue.
Comment
It may be worth looking at Triatlon rules for this. They have a mount/dismount line. If you cross, you get a 10s penalty (they then have others penalties for if it is to advantage, but they are not relevant).
How about having a dismount line 10m after the finish line. If feet touch the ground between the finish line and dismount line add X seconds to the riders time. This should help with the definition of in control and easy to administer.
Comment
What problem do you solve by having a dismount line 10m after the finish? Doesn't this just relocate the congestion problem to the dismount line?
The reason they have this in Triathlon is probably that mounting and dismounting is part of the race. Not so in unicycling.
Comment
It is worth keeping rules consistent between disciplines, but in reality it will make little difference to race outcomes.
In terms of dismounting, it is one of the considerations of the race director/organisers, and something we put effort into when locating the finish line. I would not have a prescriptive distance of 10m, because there are many variables (finish line width, number of competitors, uphill finish vs downhill or flat finish). For safety reasons, we can add to the 'in control' definition a requirement that rider must finish in a way that does not obstruct riders coming across the line.
Comment
The reason for relocating the dismount line by a X distance will help with congestion as the riders will be able to slow up during that distance as it is not timed. So congestion at the dismount line should be able to be more controlled.
Comment
I started this discussion only to solve a discrepancy in finish line rules between Track and Road, and solving this is still my objective. Meanwhile, the discussion has drifted towards the issue of finish line safety.
It appears from some comments above that even the old in-control-rule is now deemed unsafe, or at least not sufficient to ensure safety. I conclude that the issue of this discussion (i.e., the moment at which "in control" is judged, or more generally: how to unify finish rules in various disciplines) is separate from finish line safety, and I suggest that finish line safety should have its own discussion.
Comment
I'm not sure if "what to do after the clock is stopped" is a good fit in the competition rules, but if we don't have a supplemental document for that stuff, it should go in there, if only in the form of recommendations.
I believe the discussion on dismount lines and finish line logistics & safety should move to a separate discussion. What is probably required is some proper markings in the finish area, and instructing riders at the start that they must continue riding after they finish, until passing the marked line, and that this is for safety reasons (and to not foul the electronic timing; a better motivator for some riders).
Comment
Klaas - please state exactly what you would like to see in the rulebook given all the discussion about "in control".
Then it is time for a proposal.
If someone wants to open a discussion about finish line etiquette / safety, please go ahead.
Comment
In 4B.5.8 I would like to replace
"“Control” is defined by the rearmost part of the wheel crossing completely over the vertical finish plane"
by
"“Control” is defined by the front of the wheel crossing the vertical finish plane".
(Sections 5B.5.8 and 6B.5.5 are outside the scope of this subcommittee. I am not in the subcommittee(s) that deal with this. For consistency, a similar "in control" definition should be used there, in my opinion.)