Require water for races longer than 10k?
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
After the challenges with the heat at Unicon19 and riders making unwise choices for carrying their own water, it may be time to make this a rule?
4B.1 "...Water and food are the responsibility of the rider. Hosts may offer food and water stations at their discretion."
What if we add that for events longer than 10k and when the temperatures are 30C or higher, then each rider must carry water? 1 liter? As a safety requirement, a rider without this will not be allowed to start.
Comment
I like that idea.
However, I can imagine that some riders will not want to carry one extra kilo with them and it could lead to discussions before the start. Could it also be a idea to make it compulsory for an organizer to provide water for distances longer than 10k at least twice?
Comment
Maybe the same rule for the hosts. When temperatures over 30C and longer races, hosts must provide water at least twice.
The extra 1kg is not that much especially since the rider will drink it during the race.
Comment
Agree. What do the others think about that?
Comment
I agree with requiring hosts to have water in that situation. I’m not in favor of requiring a certain amount of water for racers to carry. I’m okay with requiring that they have water with them.
Also we should probably say hydration liquid or something else instead of water for riders.
Comment
"One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink." In other words, a requirement for riders to carry water will only result in some riders carrying water. In terms of liability, such a requirement might be sufficient, but I believe we must aspire to protect our riders as well as our convention organizers. We can supply them with water at the start, but not all will take it, possibly because they are not equipped with a good way to carry it.
I like the idea of water stations; I think I may have written earlier versions of the existing rule on this topic. But we are bigger now, and the world seems to be warmer. If any such rule is based on a temperature, we have to be very specific about where this number comes from. It cannot be the temperature at the starting line, because people must plan ahead for future weather conditions. We need a way of establishing an agreed-upon definition of how we cross that 30C line. I'll start this off with the following draft, which can be improved as we go:
"If the weather forecast for race day includes a high temperature of 30C or above, <whatever the rule is>. This decision must be made at least 24 hours before the race start (for early morning starts, this means better to make that determination two nights before the race). Weather forecasts can vary, so if any two major, recognized sources of weather data for the race location forecast a high temperature of 30C or higher for race day (regardless of race start time), this would trigger <whatever the rule is>."
Weather science is not exact, but we must be, to pull the trigger on such a decision. The method of deciding should be simple and transparent, so everyone can understand (like looking at apps on their phones). BTW, I recommend Weather Underground, a weather app that's been very accurate for me, and you can get a forecast for any city or town that's in its database.
I don't know if we can enforce a "must carry water" rule. Certainly we can make sure riders have it when they start, but we can't stop them from pouring it out in the first km if they are weight-weenies. It might be easier, enforcement-wise, to just have those water stations. Since our future may have an increasing amount of road races, which may continue to get longer, I recommend we use a formula that says "For races over 10k in distance, there must be a water station for every 15km of distance. On a day that hot, that might be too far apart, but allows for two water stations in a 42k race, without requiring the third. However, if this rule hinges on a 30C weather forecast, perhaps the distance should be more like 12km, which would require 3 stations on a 42, race.
In any case, the 30C forecast is where water stations are required, but can still be done in cooler weather. I remember picking up a banana in my first Unicon Marathon race (Switzerland), and that meant a lot to me. :-)
Comment
In my opinion there should be requirement for the host to provide potable water on distance not exceding 10km (or 12km for ease).
Requiring competitors to carry a water leads to additional costs that has to be made by riders. Not everybody has camelback or other system to carry water. Some riders would probably carry bottled water in hands which can be less safe and is not ecologic friendly.
Host can buy higher amount of water for better price and in bigger containers. Also, if there is a water spring on the way, (like it was on XC course Unicon 19, Korea) as providing a water it should be enough to only indicate that spot for riders.
Carrying water by competitors should be up to their own choice.
Comment
I am against a requirement for riders to carry water. It is their own responsibility. But we can (strongly, in some cases) recommend it.
I would agree with a requirement for a host to provide water. For a 100km race in Korean conditions, a rider can't realistically carry enough water for the whole race (well, I can't).
Exact wording/numbers to be decided. John mentioned every 15 (or 12) km in any race exceeding 10 km. This leads to a paradox in the somewhat hypothetical case of an 11 km race.
Also, I'm not sure if the wording of this requirement should include the weather. What exactly is meant by 30 deg C - I mean at what time and location, and measured how? And what about humidity? Wind? Long uphill races? I think I'm in favour of requiring water stations regardless of the weather, on 10k+ races.
Comment
I think if water is provided in any case it is irrelevant what the weather is. Because if there is a water station every (let's say 12km) it doesn't matter if it rains or if it's 30°... there is just water there...
Comment
I agree with Mirjam that weather should not be a factor, at least for races greater than 10k. But if we do use weather as a deciding factor for anything, it is wrong to use only the temperature; better to use the heat index. I don't know how those are calculated, but they are more accurate in relation to the effects on a human body.
So water stations are maybe the only way to provide usable refills/refueling, especially for very long races like a 100k. Klaas' question about a race of 11k can easily be addressed in the writing of whatever method we choose, for how to space them.
Also I would note, while on this subject, that many times in the past, lead riders have passed water stations that were not set up yet, because the volunteers did not correctly estimate how fast those people would be. That should, perhaps, be mentioned as well.
Comment
I am against requirement for riders to carry water.
Some riders use water for 10k, other don't. Some riders are ok with 1/2L at marathon, others need 3L. Even if all riders need water for 100k, I would be ok with a rider starting water-empty if he/she is organized to get enough during the race (by friends or at water stations).
Water stations are very important. They must be reliable and provide easy ways to drink or refill. Having people holding pre-opened water bottles, and knowing how to pass them to the riders (by running if needed) is a really cool thing.
Why not letting all riders know as early as possible (ideally several weeks before the race) :
- the maximum distance between water stations
- the highest possible temperature according to previous years
... and letting riders deciding by themselves which container they need to carry water in between?
2-3 days before the race, if it appears that the temperature is higher than the maximum anounced (rare, but can happen) and enough volunteers are available, it can be decided to reduce a bit the distance between water stations.
Comment
If we agree (I do) that weather should not be a factor for the water stations requirement, this obviates the issue on how to define the weather in the first place. :-)
Comment
Requiring the hosts to provide water is possibly nice for the riders, but adds expense to the hosts. Having water stations at set distances is nice; how can this be done so all riders have access and without excessive waste?
A reminder that all of us on the committee are representing everybody. The organizers who have budgets. The volunteers who are difficult to find. And especially, the slower racers who take over 3 hours to complete a marathon and should consume a minimum of 1.5L of fluids.
Comment
Hydration is essential for events that take over 1 hour. All the non-unicycle events have this in place I can think of have this. Running events have them about every 20 minutes, bike events every 1.5 hours (although bikes have easily accessed bottles). I think we are closer to running when it comes to water carrying and consumption.
You need hydration even when temperatures are cold.
I do think that there should be requirement for a number of water stations on events over 10km. Placing them between 8 and 12km seams sensible.
I agree we can not force riders to carry water. Education is important about hydration, too much can be as bad as too little (both can kill).
Comment
Since I don't know if we can force riders to carry water, and few riders are probably willing to carry enough water for a race like 100k, we probably have to have something along the course. One way to make the job easier is to possibly raise the bar for entry, such as by having a cut-off time that would eliminate riders slower than what we want. While this could lower the number of riders, it will probably also shrink the available volunteer pool, so don't know if it's self-defeating.
As for waste, in the past I remember being handed paper cups of water. This is much more environmentally friendly than anything plastic, but was always messy and a tiny serving. Not sufficient for long races in hot weather.
Even if we have a water carrying requirement, we probably still need to offer some sort of relief along the way, especially in hot conditions, for people who use up their water. I don't know, this is probably a topic that may need to evolve over time. As we make our Road races longer and more difficult, we will have to make them less attractive to casual riders.
The Unicon XV Marathon race (New Zealand) was probably the most difficult one, terrain-wise, that we've had. Not hot; it was actually cold (especially for the volunteers!). And windy. But it was a 4-lap course, which made it easy to offer refreshments at a single, fixed, location. This isn't always possible, but is a definite advantage for supporting the riders.
If we do decide to mandate the carrying of water, perhaps only for the longest events, we will have to decide how much, then have a good way of vetting this at the start, to make sure all riders are in compliance.
Comment
As I can read from most of the comments we agree on two things:
1. We can not force riders to carry water with them.
2. Hosts should provide water at water stations during races longer than 10km.
-> I guess we can stop discussing about point 1.
-> We need to find a good way of when and especially HOW water is provided. I agree that paper cups are not good for fast riders. I like the idea of having small plastic bottles and a certain zone (maybe 100m long) of where they can be thrown away - and having volunteers picking them up at the end of the race in this zone.
Comment
The question of how to provide water and deal with waste (like cups) is not an issue for the rulebook, I think. The host should decide on this. Most likely a "best practice" will evolve over time. Or perhaps has evolved already in other sports such as running.
Comment
1. I disagree. If we make a rule, then we enforce it. The rider doesn't start. Easy.
However, I do agree that there is not any support from this subcommittee for this rule.
2. Currently the Rulebook has this sentence as part of 4B.1: "Hosts may offer food and water stations at their discretion."
There isn't any text in the Event Organizer section (4D) about supplying water. Maybe we need some generic text that water stations are recommended?
Comment
On your (2): this is not a discrepancy in the current rulebook. 4B.1 states that hosts MAY offer food and water. Since it is at their discretion, 4D doesn't have to mention it.
However, now that most in this subcommittee agree about a requirement for the host to offer water (details to be decided), 4D must indeed have some text about it - and it seems that it must be stronger than a recommendation for water stations.
Comment
I don't agree with forcing riders to carry water. There are too many variables- how much water do they carry? The fastest riders in the Marathon will complete it in 80min- in cool conditions water is unnecessary. On the other hand, for the slowest riders it is a 3hr race- they need to have water available either from the organisers or by carrying it themselves.
In terms of the host providing water- I think we should have a stronger wording that a 'recommendation' for water stations. However, it should be as simple as possible, rather than being too prescriptive.
Comment
I struggle with requiring hosts to offer water. I know how difficult it is to find ecological solutions at low cost that do not require too many volunteers.
Ken - I recommended 1L as the minimum amount of water.
- After a little research about exercising (in any conditions), I found that at least .2 liter of water should be consumed every 20 minutes for best athlete performance.
The idea of requiring water to be carried by the rider is a safety issue. We require helmets already.
Comment
I too am still against a general requirement for riders to carry water.
If a long-distance race is done in a loop that's not too long, one water station can be enough. This would mitigate the issues that Connie struggles with.
Not that I would prescribe such "short" loops of course. Though on the other hand, as a rider I don't mind at all - I'm not there for sight-seeing.
Comment
Clear to me that requiring water to be carried by riders will not pass a proposal/vote.
What about changing 4B.1
OLD:
Water and food are the responsibility of the rider. Hosts may offer food and water stations at their discretion.
New:
Water and food are the responsibility of the rider. Recommended riders carry their own water on races longer than 10k. Hosts may offer food and water stations at their discretion.
And adding to 4D "Event Organizer Rules"
OLD: nothing
NEW: (section under or with 4D.1 "Venue"?): Hosts are strongly recommended to provide water to riders along the course for races longer than 10k.
Comment
I think this is a good compromise.
Comment
I think this is a compromise that a majority could agree on.
In "Recommended riders carry their own water (...)" I feel that some words are missing.
Perhaps "It is recommended that riders carry their own water (...)"?
Comment
Connie's updates to that section are good. But I'm concerned about lawyers that might look at that last line and drool. American lawyers are very good at inventing new ways to sue you. I know this is less of a problem in other countries, but many of those are catching up. We like to think that this won't happen to us, but I've lived through enough lawsuits (work related) to know that this is a potentially risky "hole" we are leaving. It's true that the IUF doesn't have any money to speak of, but a Unicon-in-progress can have a pretty large bank account. That's where lawyers would focus.
So what's our exposure? We (the IUF) have "strongly recommended" that hosts provide water along the course. So if someone is injured, say from heat stroke and complications that followed, because the host did not provide water, do they blame the IUF? Or the hosting organization? And how are the two connected?
The focus would likely be on that hosting organization. A Unicon organizing committee has a big pot of money at the beginning of the convention. In theory, this is all but gone by the end, but if a liability situation occurs, we should consider worst-case scenarios. Is "the IUF" responsible for what happens there, or is it the local club, or the (example) Grenoble Unicon Organizing Committee? This question is directed to IUF Board members, who would, in theory, be affected directly, personally.
We also don't want to leave our convention organizers in a legally risky place. I wonder if there's a way to more strongly word the "strongly recommended" statement, in a way to say the IUF doesn't want to force you, but we really, really seriously want you to provide water. If that has any legal meaning...
Also, yes to Klaas' edit just above this comment.
Comment
What if I take out the word "strongly"?
Comment
I think it needs to be stronger. Something like:
The IUF strongly recommends that Hosts provide water to riders along the course for any race longer than 10k. Without it, some riders' health might be at risk.
Comment
Quote:
"The IUF strongly recommends that Hosts provide water to riders along the course for any race longer than 10k. Without it, some riders' health might be at risk."
I think the first part is fine. The second sentence is unnecessary.
Comment
Adding in "The IUF ..." is redundant. If the sentence is in the rulebook, then who else would be recommending this if not the IUF?
Comment
The intent is to add a little more legal CYA. Not sure how to properly do that without it essentially looking like redundant information. It basically is, unless you're a lawyer or a judge. And this might seem ridiculous to people in countries that still have sane liability laws...
Comment
I personally am not interested in more CYA text. A Unicon or other large unicycle event in a litigious country should have strong liability insurance. I don’t think the Rulebook really helps that much, in the case it would go to court.