Definition of age
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
The definition of Age under 1D.1 reads in full:
"Age: Rider’s age for all age categories is determined by their age on the first day of the convention."
This definition has some holes:
1. What is the first day of the convention? The first day that onsite registration is open, even if nothing else happens? Or the first day with an event, such as parade? Or the first competition day?
2. What if someone is born 11:59 PM? What is their age on that day?
3. What if a competitor arrives later than most others, and THEIR first day of the convention is different from most?
I think we should we plug these holes.
Comment
In my mind the cutoff should be the day of the parade as that's when the convention is officially declared open. As for figuring out what age people are I think the generally agreed upon standard is just check the date of birth and the date at the location and disregard timezones. There's a bunch of cases where it could be argued people's birthday shift a day with timezones (like travel between Australia and USA) but it would still go by the date on the ID in most jurisdictions.
Comment
I prefer the first day of registration to be used for age calculation. That is what was used for Unicon 19 and likely previous Unicons.
Age: Rider’s age for all age categories is determined by their age on the first day of the convention. The first day of convention is defined as the first day where any events happen, including only registration.
Does any country or organization really consider the time of day? That information is not on the passport. Any person who really celebrates their birthday to the minute needs to find a different hobby.
People arriving later - that is their problem.
Comment
I didn't even consider time zones. :-)
I like Connie's version, with these notes:
I would delete "only".
And just to be sure, we might want to add "Time of birth, and difference in time zones, are disregarded".
Comment
I think it should be the first day of competition. Some unicons have registration two full days before the first competition. That to me is not a true part of the event.
I agree with the rest of the text changes.
Comment
The necessity of a clearer definition is obvious. :-)
I suggested three options, each of which now has one supporter.
Comment
There are no age groups for the event "registration", nor the event "parade". The first time there may be age groups is at the first competition. This was always my reasoning, and how I've implemented it in the past.
Comment
In Germany all competitions have a call for competition (in german: "Wettkampfausschreibung") in which the first day of the event is determined and thus also which day is decisive for the age group division - so this problem does not occur there ;)
But back to the topic: I would agree with the first competition day as well as with the first event day. I think it's just a question of definition that needs to be made.
Comment
I would agree with the first competition day as well as with the first event day.
-> Agree with that.
Comment
I agree too, but I think we should chose a specific option in the Rulebook, and not have several options in the Rulebook of which the host (or whoever) choses one.
The reasoning by Scott doesn't really hold, in my view. If the actual competition is so defining, it would almost form a plea to look at a rider's age each day again, and put into the corresponding age group. That's messy and I think nobody wants it.
Both Connie and Scott claim that their versions (which are typically two days apart) have been implemented in the past. Does anyone know which has been more often used for Unicon in the past, say, five editions? That would seem the best to chose.
Comment
Unicon 17: 2014-07-30, registration and opening ceremonies, first competition is next day
Unicon 18: 2016-07-28, first competition day
Unicon 19: 2018-07-29, registration, opening ceremonies is next day, first competition day is two days after
Note that in UDA, it assumes first competition date and age set date are the same unless you specify them as different.
Comment
1. What is the first day of the convention?
I say stick to the simplest possible interpretation, which is the date that is advertised as the first day of the convention. If Unicon is advertised as August 1-10, we count from August 1, regardless of what is happening that day. These competitions will never be exactly 365 days apart, so this may affect a few riders that have birthdays around typical convention start dates. Whether we start from the first day a competition is held is irrelevant; it's an arbitrary date in either case. But the one that's listed in all announcements, advertising, T-shirts, etc. should be the start date, even if something else ends up happening on the day before that. IMHO. The "CON" in Unicon stands for Convention, not competition. NAUCC makes that a little more complicated by using both, but who can say for sure which one is the first C?
2. What if someone is born 11:59 PM? What is their age on that day?
I supposed it should be the date listed on your birth certificate or equivalent legal document. We go by birth date, not birth hour and not birth timezone.
3. What if a competitor arrives later than most others, and THEIR first day of the convention is different from most?
Competitors don't get to pick what's the first day of the convention. :-)
Comment
Each of the three approaches has been used apparently, for the last three Unicons. So there is not really a common practice to help us decide.
I think it is most in the gist of the existing rule ("first day of the convention") to go with what John says: the first day of the convention as advertised. Now we just hope that this is unambiguous, I mean t-shirts, website, announcements etc all advertise the same start date.
If we do that, then UDA (I don't even know what that is) would either have to get a new default age set date, or age set date has to be input manually.
Comment
UDA is the unicycle data application. It's where you register and where all of the results are tabulated and calculated for Unicon, and many other large events. It's primarily been developed by Robin. A full list of events that have used it can be found here.
Upon more thought, my primary reason for preferring the first day of competition is that it is not ambiguous whatsoever. Non-ambiguity beats "general gist" in my mind, when both of these options have been used in the past.
Comment
It's hard to be non-ambiguous. The first competition can be planned and then postponed to the next day (or cancelled) due to inclement weather or other unforeseen circumstances. Or it can be rescheduled halfway the registration period.
Comment
I agree that it's impossible to be non-ambiguous. Let's stick to less ambiguous. The changes you describe are very rare. The ambiguity around "first convention day" is more frequent. Often an event has been described as July 10th - July 17th and then registration was also offered on the evening of July 9th. What to do then?
Comment
What to do then? Use 10th July. That is the advertised first day of the convention. There are always things happening before the first day of the convention, but that doesn't matter.
To remove virtually all unambiguity, we can stick with the first day of the convention as advertised on the date when registration opens.
Comment
Yup, Klaas answered Scott's question about starting date because the answer was easy.
Is registration ever started on a date earlier than the first date advertised for a convention? If it is, I would still go with that advertised (or "official") start date. This means more attention might be paid to establishing that date and making sure outgoing communications about it are consistent.
I'm filling out my registration form, and my birthday overlaps the convention. Does the registration form have the convention schedule on it? Usually not, though they are often in close proximity. I need that starting reference date to calculate my age on that date, so we might need to call more attention to it (whichever method gets chosen) in any relevant parts of the Rulebook.
Comment
John makes a good point that the schedule is sometimes not published, and rarely final, at the time that registration is opened. For that reason, I agree with "advertised start date".
Comment
John mentions both "first date" and "start date" as if they are the same thing. I prefer (advertised) "first date", because "start date" sounds as if something starts then, and that might be interpreted as the start of the competition.
At the time registration opens, it would be practically impossible that the date range of the convention is not advertised. That (notably the first date of that range) is what we should use to determine age, I think.
Comment
The proposal looks good. There is a possible confusion on "when registration opens", where people may think that means the day you can register onsite. Here I offer a couple of edits:
Age: A rider’s age for all age categories is determined by their age on the first advertised day of the convention, regardless of whether any competitions occur that day.
Time of birth, time zones and date of arrival at the convention are not relevant.
It's shorter, so harder to indicate where the edits are. Here's the original:
"Age: Rider’s age for all age categories is determined by their age on the first day of the convention, as advertised at the moment when registration opens.
Time of birth, difference in time zones, and time of arrival at the convention are disregarded.
What actually is planned to happen on the first day (such as onsite registration opens / parade / official opening / first competition etc) is also disregarded."
Comment
I will clarify "when registration opens" by changing it to "when online registration opens", thereby assuming that every convention that the Rulebook is intended for, works with online registration (as opposed to telephone, email, paper form, or just arriving and registering onsite).
I like most of your edits and will adopt them.
One element you're missing is "as advertised at the moment when registration opens."
This phrase is meant to prevent ambiguity in case the advertised first day of the event is changed during the online registration period.
But on second thought, maybe we should NOT specify this. If the date would change significantly, the age datum would have to shift with it, in order to remain realistic. So yeah, I'll adopt that too, with some small edits.